tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post7179461600562799545..comments2023-09-18T06:29:26.338-05:00Comments on Bitch In a Bonnet: Mansfield Park, chapters 1-3Robert Rodihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09531186669647709074noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-59127114764583043002020-11-26T07:20:52.981-06:002020-11-26T07:20:52.981-06:00The idea that Jane Austen was ignorant of slavery,...The idea that Jane Austen was ignorant of slavery, or never really thought of it, seems a bit odd when you consider the title of the novel. Lord Mansfield was the judge who wrote the decision that effectively abolished slavery in England in 1772. Coincidence? I think not.Adam Qhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17364550012835934648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-44164661155291881162017-05-11T01:29:11.460-05:002017-05-11T01:29:11.460-05:00i think it odd to suggest that fanny should not be...i think it odd to suggest that fanny should not be homesick because mansfield park is bigger than her own house. Size isn't everything. She misses her family. i sympathise with her totally. I would much rather be in that noisey overcrowdd Portsmouth house than in large, chilly Mansfiled Parklouiseculmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02092144618449134125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-32861515910458813332016-10-01T14:29:22.478-05:002016-10-01T14:29:22.478-05:00Did you know you can shorten your long links with ...Did you know you can shorten your long links with <b><a href="http://shortener.syntaxlinks.com/r/Shortest" rel="nofollow">Shortest</a></b> and <b>receive dollars from every click on</b> your shortened urls.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-92087688452042798182011-09-23T12:42:20.903-05:002011-09-23T12:42:20.903-05:00It's not a bother! It's a conversation! It...It's not a bother! It's a conversation! It's why I'm here! You have my permission (in fact, my encouragement) to challenge me any time you want. It keeps me on my toes.<br /><br />And thanks for your interest.Robert Rodihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09531186669647709074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-68711943816354529242011-09-23T11:13:00.507-05:002011-09-23T11:13:00.507-05:00I can agree with that; like all writers, she has t...I can agree with that; like all writers, she has to get the less-than-stellar stuff out of her system in order to grow. I'm just a little over-emotional sometimes, but I still really do like Fanny. Sorry to bother you. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-90982876559634653142011-09-22T22:43:52.707-05:002011-09-22T22:43:52.707-05:00I don't dispute Fanny's integrity as a cha...I don't dispute Fanny's integrity as a character...she is what she is, and completely so. What I dispute is that she's a valid choice for the heroine of a comic novel, and especially a comic novel by Jane Austen, whose strengths lie very much in a different direction. Austen was clearly striving for something different here—we can all make our suppositions as to what (mine should, by now, be blindingly obvious). My larger point is that, given the evidence of what came after (immediately after, in the case of EMMA), Austen must afterwards have thought, "HO-kay, never gonna do THAT again." Fanny is a perfectly realized fictional character; just the WRONG fictional character for a Jane Austen novel. She presages the Victorian view of womanhood (meek, passive, reactive, submissive), which perhaps Austen sensed coming and tried to co-opt; but it was a fatal choice for her, as her own sympathies so clearly lie elsewhere. Her best heroines (Lizzy, Emma) walk (or bettter, trip) a line between duty and submission on the one hand, and defiance and rebellion on the other. It's the friction, the frisson, that makes them immortal. Fanny has none of that; neither does Elinor Dashwood, but Elinor has Marianne to poke and prod her into growth, into transcendence (and vice-versa). Fanny's Marianne is Mary Crawford, whom she utterly (and coldly) rejects, to the detriment of both. MANSFIELD PARK is a wonderful novel in many respects, but a failed one; its chief value is as a step in Austen's development—as the precusor to EMMA. Which is a theme I'll be enlarging on later. (Sorry for running on this way, I've just had two glasses of Brunello di Montalcino; feeling very Italian and VERY voluble.)Robert Rodihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09531186669647709074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-85447546227122684792011-09-22T22:13:30.567-05:002011-09-22T22:13:30.567-05:00Or, in less wordy and possibly deranged terms, we ...Or, in less wordy and possibly deranged terms, we can't all be sparkling diamonds; some of us are just river pebbles, and it's okay to be that, whether or not most people are into that sort of thing or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-18389409542495679252011-09-22T08:40:24.995-05:002011-09-22T08:40:24.995-05:00Oh, dear...I feared this would happen. I've re...Oh, dear...I feared this would happen. I've read your takes (if that's even the right word to use) on Sense and Sensibility and Pride and Prejudice, and up until this point I've been both entertained and enlightened (and I thank you heartily for it!). Unfortunately, unlike about 99% of the Austen-fan population, Mansfield Park is one of my favorites. I can certainly understand why people don't like it, but for me...I'm probably too much like Fanny, really. I don't want to argue with you, as I'm not good at it, but the one comment I will offer is that Fanny's shyness, coupled with a domineering beast of an aunt and general neglect from everyone but Edmund, isn't something a girl like Fanny could easily overcome. Her deference and feeling of unworthiness is perfectly natural, given the facts of her upbringing and her personality. But, again, I'm probably too much like Fanny (and, dangit all, Jane Bennet) to see her journey as anything other than a triumph for her (beset as she is by the raging immorality introduced by the Crawfords in Sir Thomas' absence, she keeps true to her beliefs and isn't led much farther into temptation than being pressed into participating in the play, if only to keep other people out of it).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-84938181030268580682011-02-08T18:46:36.263-06:002011-02-08T18:46:36.263-06:00Okay, I expected the Fanny Patrol to come out swin...Okay, I expected the Fanny Patrol to come out swinging, and here they are! Myrtat has called me "ungrateful" because I complain about my living expenses when other people have it so much worse.<br /><br />Okay, Myrtat, let me fight sophistry with sophistry. Why are you riling yourself up to attack a lowly blogger when there are terrorists, thieves and corporate raiders in the world? Why so petty?<br /><br />We can continue in this vein, or we can agree to put aside rhetorical sleight-of-hand and address the text on its own terms. Your call.Robert Rodihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09531186669647709074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-33995182054803695522011-02-05T12:53:54.257-06:002011-02-05T12:53:54.257-06:00You sounded just like Aunt Norris when you critici...You sounded just like Aunt Norris when you criticized the child Fanny's reaction to being taken away from all she'd ever known & loved, and plunked down in a strange place where her new "family" seems mainly concerned with emphasizing her unworthiness and making sure she "knows her place". Today, some folks would call that child abuse.<br /><br />And why are YOU complaining about spending so much income on a tiny home, when many people have neither homes nor incomes? Why so ungrateful?Martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17570040930983242270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-90547595375338127442010-12-02T12:18:25.921-06:002010-12-02T12:18:25.921-06:00Abolition had been a well known subject throughout...Abolition had been a well known subject throughout the British Empire decades before "MANSFIELD PARK" was published. And it has been established that Austen was aware that slavery existed and harbored abolition sympathies.The Rush Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667282586023023623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-44043448765403051352010-12-02T12:16:46.455-06:002010-12-02T12:16:46.455-06:00The slave trade was abolished by the UK in 1807. A...<i>The slave trade was abolished by the UK in 1807. And in a way, the slave trade was much more dehumanizing than slave-owning, in a way. It sure made a lot more victims.</i><br /><br /><br /><br />I don't get this statement. Are you saying that it was better to be a slave than a passenger/merchandise on a slave ship? Trust me. Once the slaves reached land and were purchased, a great number of them endured treatment that was just as dehumanizing as the kind that was faced aboard a slave ship.The Rush Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667282586023023623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-63403349317217386302010-12-02T11:54:22.617-06:002010-12-02T11:54:22.617-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Rush Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667282586023023623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-48690154964944003012010-12-02T11:53:19.430-06:002010-12-02T11:53:19.430-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Rush Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667282586023023623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-73116639695157600862010-10-17T22:32:30.981-05:002010-10-17T22:32:30.981-05:00@Lynn Shepherd — I'm not familiar with Murder ...@Lynn Shepherd — I'm not familiar with Murder at Mansfield Park, but I'll definitely track it down once I've closed the covers on the original.<br /><br />@Quixotience — Do Nabokov's lecture notes on MP still exist? I'd love to read them. His was such an astringent genius. I loved LOLITA even though it kind of made me sick to my stomach, if you knowumsayin'.<br /><br />@Tinkerbellee — I'm guessing Austen couldn't have known how brutal and inhumane the slave trade was. Nothing in her own experience could have provided for it. Similarly, I just read a Nancy Mitford novel, WIGS ON THE GREEN, written in 1935, that makes merry mock of Naziism; Mitford never allowed it to be reprinted in her lifetime, because after the war jokes about National Socialism just weren't funny. If there was a time when Nancy Mitford could be innocent about the Third Reich, then it's certainly possible Jane Austen could have been innocent about slavery. (P.S. WIGS ON THE GREEN is freakin' hilarious, political incorrectness aside.)<br /><br />@sebazzel — Though Austen might have been oblivious to the extremity of slavery's injustice, I can well believe she was opposed to it on principle alone. Thanks for providing evidence to support his.<br /><br />@ArchiveMatters — Thanks for all the historical background. Really does help put both Austen's point of view, and Mansfield Park's mise en scene, in perspective.<br /><br />BTW, sorry about the long delay between posts...I'm hoping to weigh in once a week going forward. I just posted my analysis of chapters 4-6 today; so, finger crossed, I'll see you back here for a dissection of chapters 7-9 on the October 23.Robert Rodihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09531186669647709074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-8681830629094348242010-10-07T01:55:34.469-05:002010-10-07T01:55:34.469-05:00Did I mention that I, too, am glad the Bitch is Ba...Did I mention that I, too, am glad the Bitch is Back? ;-)ArchiveMattershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17960088446574231304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-62050323720285310552010-10-07T01:51:19.092-05:002010-10-07T01:51:19.092-05:00Oops, I stand corrected, slavery in the UK was abo...Oops, I stand corrected, slavery in the UK was abolished a lot sooner (1772 in Britain, 1776 in Scotland...hmmmmm...does that signify anything? Oh well, I'll let it lie ;-). The slave trade was abolished by the UK in 1807. And in a way, the slave trade was much more dehumanizing than slave-owning, in a way. It sure made a lot more victims. And only in 1833 was slavery in all its forms abolished throughout the British realm, including the colonies with their plantations. In the end, it was a matter of money: who was going to pay off the slave-owning plantation owners, and to what amount?<br />Someone/Something be praised that it's not official anymore. Now for the abolition of unofficial slavery! But I'll leave the topic now, end of rant, hey, how about that Mrs Norris, eh?ArchiveMattershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17960088446574231304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-33515645929907019892010-10-05T13:53:34.005-05:002010-10-05T13:53:34.005-05:00One thing we have to bear in mind is the complete ...One thing we have to bear in mind is the complete and utter changes that have taken place in western society over the last 200 years. When Austen started writing, the UK was still supporting slavery. It was only abolished in 1807, and not much fuss was made about it. It was mostly looked upon as a trade that had outlived its advantages. But lower class free life was often just as underestimated as was life in slavery: poor people were apt to be sent to Australia in semi-slavery for the slightest offences, and white military and naval personnel also met with brutal physical punishments with shocking frequency. It was not about being black and a slave or white and free, but about being rich enough to be completely self-supporting or not. If you were not, the upper class were not very likely to improve your lot (other than the required Christian goodyness), or take much notice of you.ArchiveMattershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17960088446574231304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-74531153406552856062010-09-30T16:07:09.927-05:002010-09-30T16:07:09.927-05:00As far as I know, Austen was an abolitionist. Her ...As far as I know, Austen was an abolitionist. Her brother Frank once wrote disparagingly about slavery. Jane herself was also fond of both Cowper and Clarkson. <br /><br />Anyway: this blog post is every bit as delightful as the others, well done. The notion of Fanny being a "mail-order niece" really cracked me up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-52067404348078492522010-09-30T08:19:52.197-05:002010-09-30T08:19:52.197-05:00Yay - the bitch is back!! I'm also convinced t...Yay - the bitch is back!! I'm also convinced that Austen 'knew' about the slave trade - how could she not? And from the abolitionist movement that was in full force during her lifetime, she must have been generally aware that the situation of slaves was unpleasant – the question is, did she know exactly HOW unpleasant? Perhaps she vaguely viewed them as she did servants (which she also generally ignores in her work) – unlucky to be born in the lower classes and having to toil for a pittance, but that was simply their place in life.Tinkerbelleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07380864574345790612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-10082256521929542232010-09-27T19:42:28.084-05:002010-09-27T19:42:28.084-05:00In 1950, tasked with teaching English literature, ...In 1950, tasked with teaching English literature, Vladimir Nabokov asked Edmund Wilson for advice. Wilson immediately suggested Dickens and Austen. I offer without comment their back-and-forth:<br />Nabokov: "I dislike Jane, and am prejudiced, in fact, against all women writers. They are in another class. Could never see anything in Pride and Prejudice. . . ."<br />Wilson: "You are mistaken about Jane Austen. I think you ought to read Mansfield Park. . . . She is, in my opinion, one of the half dozen greatest English writers."<br />Nabokov: "I have obtained Mansfield Park and I think I shall use it too in my course. Thanks for these most useful suggestions."Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14837767239276372707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4298248935115153010.post-32371974689223828972010-09-27T01:43:09.790-05:002010-09-27T01:43:09.790-05:00Excellent diatribe - and some very sharp observati...Excellent diatribe - and some very sharp observations. Given what you say, I think you would really enjoy Murder at Mansfield Park - it was born from many of the same feelings!Lynn Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01110818558940930119noreply@blogger.com